Citizens Voice "Caves" Concerns to City Commission

IRONWOOD, MI - Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - The Ironwood City Commission Chambers were wall-to-wall with people at Monday night's regularly scheduled meeting. The majority of the crowd was there to hear an update on the future uses of the "Caves" area of town -- a stretch of nature-reclaimed, former mining land along Ayer Street.

The majority of the "Caves" area property. approximately 200 acres, was deeded to the City of Ironwood, many years ago, in a land deal with Keweenaw Land Association. At the time the property was deeded to the City, the land association made it clear that the land was subsiding an was of little use for construction.

Over the years, the land has had many uses: (1) A portion of the property was used as a City composting site; (2) local ATV's and snowmobiles have used to property as an unauthorized passageway to the designated trails; (3) locals have hiked, biked and walked their dogs through the property; (4) the City has used part of the land for snow-dumping and as a clean landfill; and (5) the property was used as a disposal site for unwanted household items.

Just over two years ago, Ironwood businessman Jerry Pisani approached the City looking for a site to build a commercial storage facility. Former Community Development Director Pat Merrill suggested a portion of the Caves area along Ayer Street as a possible site for Pisani's project. Until recently, Pisani has been actively pursuing the land, but was unsuccessful. Several issues needed to be addressed before the property could be sold and developed. The land is zoned "open" so it would need to be rezoned. The property would need to be surveyed and appraised. The stability of the land needed to be determined. And, the City Commission wanted input from the Parks & Recreation Committee; the Planning Committee; and the general public to determine the best possible use for the property in the future.

Depending on who you ask, you will get a wide variety of suggested uses for the land. Several options are available to the City, and just about any combination of these options could be considered: (1) Leave the land as it is; (2) Subdivide the property and sell it; (3) Create officially designated ATV, snowmobile and motorized trails; (4) Create "silent sport" trails for hiking, biking, walking, snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, and walking pets; (5) City Deer Hunt (Deer Management Plan); and (6) Create a Miner's Memorial Heritage Park on the property to honor miners who gave their lives in the area mines.

Most of the people in attendance at Monday night's meeting were there to see what direction the City was going regarding the future use of this once-forgotten area.

Community Development Director Dan Petersen addressed the Commission to give an ownership update on the "Caves" area, and an update of the potential uses of the "Caves."  Petersen indicated that two town hall meetings were held recently to discuss possible uses of the land, and to discuss compatibility of those uses.

"After that, we decided to get some representatives from some of the particular interests, who came on their own, to actually draw out a 'potential use map' of that area, which I have in my hand and I will show to you in a minute. But, that's really where we're at right now, we're kind of at a standstill, a stalemate in terms of which uses are appropriate where in the 'Caves' area. But I would like to share this -- a general ownership interest -- with you in the 'Caves' area." 

With the help of Rick Semo (who held the other end of the display map), Petersen pointed out which property in the area was clearly identified as being City-owned and which properties were determined to be privately-0wned or have not yet been determined.

According to Petersen, a 13 acre parcel of land along Frenchtown Road is technically owned by the City, but he said that documentation was found that shows the property was given to  to the schools by the previous City Commission. He said he was unsure what action has been taken since the previous Commission voted to give the property to the school. Petersen explained that a deed was never filed by the schools.

"So basically, where the compost pile is, we don't own?" Commissioner Lamb asked.

"We don't know exactly," Petersen responded, "I mean, we'd probably need a survey to determine the exact parameters of that lot, but, potentially..."

"Are we going to look into a survey?" Lamb questioned.

"Well, we'd like some direction from you." Petersen started.

City Manager Scott Erickson interrupted stating that the City intends on checking into any questionable lots -- the compost site in particular.

EDITOR'S NOTE: This morning the Chronicle contacted the City Assessor/Building Inspector Dennis Hewitt, and he explained that, after further investigation, records indicate that the City has title to the compost area.

Mayor Noren asked the Commission if they had any questions regarding Mr. Petersen's presentation. When none of the Commissioners spoke up, Noren opened the floor to citizens wishing to address the Commission on the use of the area.

Tom Bergman was the first to speak, "Just a real quick note, just a reminder of what the park proposal was. 'The vision of the Friends of the Miners Memorial Heritage Park is to create a park that is respectful memorial to people who built our community. Part of that vision includes a non-motorized trail system. There's a missing part of our local economy, it's a piece of a multi-faceted public how we can help the area prosper. There's a possible way to attract people to the area as well as create a unique and wonderful resource to the people who live here.' So I just wanted to reiterate what our original proposal was just in case it got lost in the process."

Rick Semo, candidate for City Commission, then addressed the Commission. "I kind of get a little confused as to why we are having -- we've had three meetings. The gist of the meetings seems to be what's the proper use of the 'Caves' and the use revolves around motorized v. non-motorized use. But, I really feel like this is in the City's interest to formulate a more comprehensive ATV policy. Right now, we're kind of like separating the 'Caves' area from the rest of the City. But it doesn't exist in a vacuum -- it's part of our City. Are we going to make it a separate environment or are we going to have a comprehensive City policy on the ATV use that we are going to implement? Because currently, as I understand it, ATV's are not allowed in the City except for the probationary use of trail #2. Is that correct?"

"I think we've been allowing them on trail #2, is that correct Bob?" Mayor Bruce Noren responded, asking for IPSD Director Bob Erspamer's input.

"Trail #2, we just allowed them to be used, that's correct!" Erspamer replied.

"Probationary, is that correct?" Semo tried to clarify.

"Probationary? That's not what was done." Noren repeated.

"No!" Commissioner Toth moaned.

According to the minutes from the June 29, 2009 City Commission Meeting, the use was probationary, "Motion was made by Noren, seconded by Laabs to authorize the use of the existing Trail #2 as a multi-use trail allowing Gogebic Range Trail Authority (GRTA) to apply for the grant and signage be placed according to speed limit (15 mph except by the depot where it will be 5 mph), giving right of way to other non-motorized traffic, and best efforts be made for dust control. They also authorized the City Manager to work with the GRTA to make any needed changes to the speed limit and to revisit the use of Trail #2 by October 15, 2010."

"It's not probationary." Semo responded,"Okay, I'm sorry about that! So, right now, what we are trying to do is put the cart before the horse, by creating a policy -- we need a policy that covers the City."

Semo when on to say, "There are many possible outcomes to a City policy concerning ATV use. It could be a formal ban; it could allow use on selected City streets; it could be any one of a number of outcomes. It could be currently basically what it is right now... a free-for-all. So the City, I really feel, needs to address this issue. It would be in the best interest of all of our citizens." 

Semo ended his address by giving a plug to his weekly hikes through the 'Caves' area. He invited the Commission to come along to see what a beautiful area the 'Caves' has become.

Jackie Powers then addressed the Commission. "The only thing I would add is to reiterate what was just said that there is a need to address whether we're going to continue with the current ATV policy, then essentially the Park concept should not have been approved and we should abandon that. If you want to have the Park and ATV's I think we could work that out. If we want to have ATV's everywhere we can't also have the 'silent sport' or the more reverent Park that we are looking for and continue. He had the meetings and we did have some common ground regarding our heritage. There are members of all groups involved that have that commonality. We want to respect the heritage; we want to build this memorial; we want to put up plaques and make the City a more interesting place to live and visit."

"We want to get on with it," Powers continued, "But we're kind of stymied by this issue about where ATV's should go, and if the City's going to continue to say they officially can't go anywhere, then there's no point to continue to argue about where they're going to go. So I think all of us would like to get that part resolved. And times have changed. The 'Caves' aren't a big, junky, dumping grounds anymore. It's turned into a beautiful place, as Rick mentioned. People enjoy hiking there now. It's seen as a natural place which is a new identity for that area. So we need to adapt and embrace it for the people who are interested in that for our community."

Mayor Noren then invited Kim Kolesar to address the Commission. Ms. Kolesar is the Executive Director of the Ironwood Chamber of Commerce as well as the Secretary of the Gogebic Range Trail Authority (GRTA) which is, according to their website, a non-profit organization dedicated to the maintenance and improvement of 112 miles of snowmobile trails in and around Bessemer, Ironwood and Wakefield.

"I guess I just can't understand why both of these groups cannot utilize the same area. I thought that's what we were working on." said Kolesar, "So, tonight I ask the Commission not to delay this process any longer."

"Our group has already spend numerous volunteer hours researching the 'Caves;'" Kolesar continued, "Attending meetings; and talking with people working out issues. It was crystal clear from day one which access routes through the 'Caves' the GRTA was seeking. The City Staff and the Miners Memorial Group are also aware of the access routes requested by other motorized groups. From the ultimate suggestion of the City Commission we knew what was expected of us and we followed through on our end. And now we feel like we are back to square one on this issue. I feel this recent decision is just another delay tactic, and the Commission now has the power to make a decision to authorize all current accesses for all uses in the 'Caves' area regardless of what's transpired within a group. So I hope that's done tonight. Thank-you!"

Steve Frank said, "First off, speaking for myself -- I'm not a member of any group -- that's sort of my point. I strongly object to this last 'private' meeting that was held. My understanding is that it encompassed the Friends of the Miners Memorial Park; the Gogebic Range Trail Authority; and the Norrie Club. All three of those are membership based organizations. Have we lowered ourselves to the level that we have to pay dues in order to be heard in the City of Ironwood? It was a closed to the public meeting and no press was allowed."

"The rules of that last private meeting stated that each group was allowed 3 representatives. This was violated by both the GRTA and the Norrie Club which is also a member of the GRTA, but of course rules aren’t enforced. The trail authority has repeatedly been asked to provide maps showing proposed ATV trails in the caves. They have never done so." Frank continued.

"And I just heard that they think they've been quite clear what trail they want, but in the next breath, it was stated, 'encompassing all access points to that trail.'  That means all trails."

"The authority’s website states: 'We are a non-profit organization dedicated to the maintenance and improvement of 112 miles of snowmobile trails in and around Bessemer, Ironwood and Wakefield.' I understand that they've expanded their scope to include ATV's. But, I would submit that their organization does not even have a mandate to be involved in this issue. Their website further states: 'The GRTA is responsible for signing all trails to the requirements of the DNR.' Considering that trail 2 exists why would the DNR be interested in funding signage and maintenance for a tiny local system that is overwhelmingly used by local teenagers who are either too young to drive or unable to afford a vehicle?" Frank added.

"This has nothing to do with a regional trail system. It is about openly zoned land in Ironwood and the desire of a group of people to help the city implement its own Recreation Plan and the Blueprint Plan. And both of these plans had numerous opportunities for citizens to make their wishes known. Responses to the Recreation Survey mention ATV's twice, the same number as a boxing ring got. And there’s a reason for the low numbers. This wasn’t an issue until some politicians made it one, because they cared more about their agenda rather that what is best for Ironwood. The GRTA’s website lists 58 individual members representing approximately 41 families. These families span at the least Ironwood to Wakefield including the townships. Of the 40 commercial members 16 are from the City of Ironwood."

"Several people have said to me that there are more important things to talk about than trails, that the city should stop wasting time. I agree, but don’t blame the 'park people.' They never intended to cost the city time or money. They are the leaders, they stepped forward, and they can still create something for Ironwood to be proud of. All you have to do is let them." Frank concluded.

Lou Bonagura then addressed the Commission. "My name is Lou Bonagura. I am a resident of Ironwood. I was unaware that the City of Ironwood was so prosperous that it could choose to between which segments of the economy it could keep or to eliminate. Nor was I aware that Ironwood was so perfect that it could choose or dismiss any recreational activity for its citizens and tourists alike."

"First," Bonagura continued, "I do not, nor do I intend to participate in motorized sports. To the contrary, I ride a non-motorized bike. I look forward to using the existing and future trails alike. However, I do not -- I repeat, I do not -- look forward to doing so at the expense of other citizens who wish to use the existing and future trails for motorized sports. I've seen, first hand, that both sports can successfully co-exist when selfishness and self-serving motives are eliminated from the equation."

"I also know as a parent that one of the first things you attempt to teach your children is to share. Perhaps some of the individuals involved in the current dispute have forgotten what their parents have taught them. Additionally, if the establishment of a Miners Memorial Park were sincere, and not just camouflage for self-serving purposes, I believe as do most citizens that have spoken that we believe that the park should be accessible to handicapped individuals as well as non-handicapped individuals. Perhaps the park should be made accessible to all motorized vehicles. I strongly suggest that legal research into that particular element of the 'Caves' concept. There has been a great deal of litigation surrounding the concept of the availability of public lands."

"I understand that the area in question contains approximately 425 square acres. It's hard to understand how New York's Central Park can satisfy the needs of 23 million people annually and that our 'Caves' area can't accommodate a pitiful few hundred people." Bonagura said.

"Finally, while it may be beneficial to talk about how many businesses this or that will bring to Ironwood -- I believe what is more important is what Ironwood brings to its current taxpayers and citizens. Thank-you." Bonagura ended.

Mary Abramson told the Commission that she believes with 'give and take' both sides should be able to work together to make the area accessible to all activities.

"All I can say is since that trail downtown has been open to ATV's -- just on Saturday, I was talking to one of my tenants... she has a young, infant, baby... well, that's kind of redundant, I guess, but she had her baby with her... and two ATV's came barreling down Lawrence Street; cut across my parking lot; dug big ruts in my parking lot; and almost ran her over. I've seen more ATV's barreling through town than I've ever seen before, and when they are on the trails, they are not following that 5 mile per hour limit. I don't see how you can possibly think that the same space can be occupied by motorized and non-motorized sports and expect that to be a safe environment for both parties." This reporter told the Commission.

Mayor Noren reminded the Commission that no action was necessary on this issue because it was simply an update, but he did ask if there were any comments from the Commissioners.

"I've got a few comments," said Commissioner Toth, "One, my understanding was on Thursday with the walk, there was also a group of a dozen ATV's that were in the 'Caves' area at the exact same time as your walk. From my understanding, that neither group saw the other -- that there was no crossing over there was no problems between them, because neither group saw the other group. We had a brief discussion earlier today, and there seems to be some against the ways that we can accommodate both groups. Again, if everybody works together to share. And I find it very disappointing that many people, well I shouldn't say many, but there are some people who don't seem to be willing to share this area."

"Because of this," Toth said, "I hereby move that the ATV motorized sports in the City of Ironwood be authorized to travel along currently used access points, through the 'Caves' area to the nearest designated official trail. So basically what you're using right now is going to be officially okay. Additionally, I direct staff to identify saleable portions of City-owned property from the map that you just had of what the title searches, and obtain appraisals for that property. Once those appraisals have been obtained, I'd like to see that property offered for sale. I would like to have that information brought back to the City Commission by the first meeting in September. And additionally, I'd like to see both groups sit down one more time and figure out a way that you guys can co-exist."

Mayor Noren responded with, "Okay, does everybody understand the motion? Would you like me to try to rephrase the motion?"

City Attorney Cossi pointed out that Ms. Toth's motion was actually two motions because somebody could vote no on the first part and yes on the second.

"Then I'll do the first one," Toth continued, "I move that ATV motorized sports in the City of Ironwood shall be authorized to travel along currently used access points along the 'Caves' area to the nearest officially designated trail."

Steve Frank tried to comment on the proposed motion. When he raised his hand, Mayor Noren said, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry."

"I don't think the motion is even legal, Mr. Mayor!" Frank said.

"I'm sorry! And it's legal if a Commissioner wishes to take action on something and they propose an action."

Frank tried to explain that the Agenda item was simply an update. Any action was simply not on the Agenda.

"So the motion before us," Noren continued, after ignoring Frank's comments,"Is to authorize use by ATV's on the current trails located in the 'Caves' area. Is that your motion?"

Suzanne Toth added, "At currently used access points." The Gogebic Range Trail Authority identified 31 different access points throughout the 'Caves' area.

"Is there support for that motion?" Noren asked of the Commission.

Laabs said he seconded the motion but he wanted to further discuss the matter.

"A motion's been made by Commissioner Toth, supported by Commissioner Laabs. It's open for discussion -- amongst the Commissioners." Noren declared, "Commissioners?"

Bob Burchell spoke up. "I guess the questions I have are new, as I don't know what that means! What are all the trails? The blanket opening of the trails in the 'Caves' to anybody who has a motorized vehicle?

"What I'm saying is that the way it is commonly used is that we are authorizing that to be official. What they're using it for now instead of being, you know, not official, but we're not enforcing it. We're saying, 'Okay, fine you can use it!' this way." Toth explained.

"So you're wanting to make it all legal now?" Burchell asked.

"Yes!" Toth replied.

"An Ordinance that would make ATV legal in the City as it's currently being done? Burchell asked.

"Within the 'Caves' area!" Toth replied.

According to the City Charter [Section 6.1 (a)], "(1) Ordinances may be enacted, amended, or repealed by the affirmative vote of at least three members of the City Commission. Proposed ordinances  shall be introduced in written or printed form and shall be identified by number and a short title. (2) Except for emergency ordinances, no ordinance shall be finally passed by the City Commission at the same meeting at which it is introduced." (Page 17).

"Within the 'Caves' area that we own? Or the the 'Caves' area that we're using?" Burchell asked.

"Within the 'Caves' area that we own!" Toth answered.

Burchell continued, "So would it include the compost area or that little outlet? It wouldn't be a connection, except for that little corner of land where the '40's' meet."

"Well, Dan had a map that had areas marked that are currently used." Toth responded.

"The question I have, now that we kind of got a chance to see what we own, when I see a corner here," Burchell pointed on the map, "Where the two adjacent parcels touch this parcel and this would be the only access point, otherwise you have..."

"I believe we're only authorized to take action on property we own anyway!" Noren interrupted.

"And, you know, there's also a kind of a new situation that's developed, where we don't really own a lot of this, and I think that, that has to be addressed, a little bit because we're using it for stuff -- like the compost -- composting is being done on there and I don't know if we have any realms for that. And another thing I don't know about is liability. I know that we looked into that and the Miners Memorial group found that, liability wise, we were covered under our existing policy with no additional insurance increase. And I think that Trail #2 which is currently the one we allow 4-wheeling on, the question was raised, I think, to Gordy of the Gogebic Range Trail Authority has a two million dollar insurance policy through the state that covers motorized vehicles. In fact, I think it's a separate one for ATV's and a separate one for snowmobiles? " Burchell asked.

Gordy Koski replied, "It's actually one right now!"

Burchell continued, "So the City is somewhat protected on this grade right here!" Burchell pointed out about Trail #2, "But I couldn't vote on something tonight without knowing there's protection for the City of Ironwood for ATV use in there. I don't know if..."

"Do we have immunity? Doesn't the City have immunity to a suit if people are recreating on City property and get into?" Noren interrupted.

"Well, just sitting here," Dennis Cossi explained, "It's very difficult to give an opinion. But there is a Statute under recreational activities that addresses that issue." Cossi went on to say that these questions would have to be answered by the City's insurance carrier.

"I have a question." said Commissioner Lamb, "At one point in one of the meetings they said that there were thirty-one access points into the 'Caves.' Have those ever been mapped? I have never seen one. Do we know where those thirty-one access points are?"

Gordy Koski, Trail Boss for the Gogebic Range Trail Authority and Recreational Officer for the Gogebic County Sheriff’s Department, said "Yeah, I've got the on the GPS. I went through the 'Caves' area to find all the access points."

"But is there a map?" Ms. Lamb repeated, "Is there a map of them?"

"No, mam there isn't." Koski replied. "GPS coordinates is all we have."

"There is no map, so we would be voting on something we have no idea about we were voting on! Is that correct?" Lamb asked.

"You'd just be voting on the City-owned land. I mean, like I said, you guys can't vote on somebody else's land. This is City land." Koski explained.

"But how can we vote on it, if we don't know where the access points are?" Lamb asked.

"Again, that question is for us to decide. It's not on them!" Noren said.

"Well, no, I asked if there was an actual map." Lamb explained, "Because I asked several times to see an actual map of where the trails are that they're asking for."

Noren responded, "But I think he's answered that... the map does not exist!"

"The map does not exist, okay. And it has not be designated on any of our aerial maps, correct?" Lamb questioned.

"I think though, what is being asked of us to consider is, shall the use that has been occurring on that property be sanctioned as use allowed by the City?" Noren suggested, "There are groups that have come and said, 'They shouldn't even be there, therefore we should be able to use this property for some other use! So what I think what is being proposed tonight -- correct me if I'm wrong -- is to consider sanctioning that use."

"I guess my point with the groups getting together with all the different access points, from my understanding, or expectation, was that with 31 or whatever how many groups is that you guys sit down, you can work together and decide that, 'Well, if we go this way and this way, we can eliminate this section here! Or we can eliminate different sections so that you can both run in the exact same area without having issues -- without having any negative issues.' That was my expectation and when you guys went through."

Believing he was being directly addressed, Tom Bergman asked, "Would you like a response from me?"

"No, I'm not looking for a response." Toth said.

Bergman responded, "Okay!"

"I guess the point, then, that the Commission has to consider is, are we comfortable allowing ATV use in the area known as the 'Caves' in the manner in which it's been occurring in the past? That's the question! That's the motion that was made and supported that opened this discussion." Noren repeated.

"So that would basically take the current City Ordinance and declare that it is basically non-effective?" Lamb pondered.

'I wouldn't say that!" Noren replied, "What we're doing is carving a niche in the City where it's being used now and suggesting that it be allowed now as an officially recongnized use in that area. It's taking nothing away from the existing ordinance."

City Manager Scott Erickson explained that there currently is no ordinance regarding ATV use.

Bob Burchell asked if there was a law that permits them on the City streets.

Noren interjected that ATV's are not legally allowed on the streets, except on designated routes.

Lamb asked if there were any designated ATV routes within the City other that Trail #2. She was told there were not. So she asked if all ATV's needed to be trailered to a designated route.

Noren answered, "Yes!"

Lamb then asked for a clarification of the existing law. She asked if minors between the ages of 12 and 15 were required to (1) wear a helmet; (2) be adult supervised; (3) pass an ATV safety course; (4) be on a designated trail only; and (5) have only one person per ATV.

Gordy Koski agreed with one small correction -- there can be more than one person on an ATV provided it is built to accommodate more than one person.

"And we don't have any of those infractions happening?" Lamb asked.

"We have a lot of those infractions happening." IPSD Director Bob Erspamer explained, "And if you people can't decide what to do with the trails, how are we going to decide what to enforce when you get a different opinion all of the time? I mean, I've been told for a couple of years, now, by the City Commission and the City Manager, 'You know we need to decide on this one way or the other. Until that time, use your discretion on enforcing that!"

"Yes, and I must admit," Lamb continued, "Since we've opened Trail #2 to ATVer's I have heard many complaints about the dust problem; about excess speed; about ATVer's using more streets to get to the trail; and so, I have reservations about it. I must admit I do."

Commission Tom Laabs asked if the restrictions for an ATV were the same as the restrictions for a snowmobile.

Gordy Koski explained that a 12-year old with a safety permit can drive unattended on a snowmobile, but with an ATV 12-16 year olds are required to be with an adult. The restriction is basically like a learning permit, Koski said.

Laabs asked IPSD Director Bob Erspamer if it made sense to open up the same City streets to ATV's that are currently opened up to snowmobiles. Erspamer said, in his opinion, it would be a good idea. Erspamer said that ATV use has increased dramatically, but the number of complaints that he is aware of, has not increased.

Laabs went on to add that users in non-designated areas, would be breaking the law and could be ticketed. Erspamer said he would prefer that because the law would pretty much be "etched in stone" and it is easy to enforce because the law would be clearly defined.

Laabs asked Toth if that was part of her motion.

"I will add that!" Toth responded.

Laabs said if the 'Caves' are open, there has to be a way for them to get there, so he suggested that the roads adjacent to the 31 access points be opened for ATV use as well.

Noren suggested that, considering the 'Caves' is currently being used primarily as an access route to designated trails, if the roads were opened to ATV use the 'Caves' use would no longer be an issue.

Koski explained that many of the roads would be closed to ATV's and that most ATV operators don't like traveling on roads.

Noren asked if some people use the 'Caves' as an area just to ride around in. Erspamer said some use it for that. Noren suggested that such activity in the 'Caves' would no longer be allowed -- it would simply be used as an access trail to the designated trails. Noren added that opening up the roads to the designated trail would eliminate the use of the 'Caves' for ATV's.

Lamb disagreed, stating that they would still use the 'Caves'. She said some would opt for the road, but some would rather use the 'Caves' trails.

"Until we have a designated plan," Lamb asked, "How can we vote on anything? Are we opening all roads in the City of Ironwood to ATV's and snowmobiles?"

Tom Laabs responded, "We're opening designated roads."

"How do you get to the designated roads? Do you trailer your ATV to get to the road?" Lamb asked, "Or do you go on a trail? Or do you go where you want to go?"

"You voted for the snowmobile trail! How did they get there then?" Laabs asked.

Lamb pointed out that the only time she voted for snowmobiles on City streets is to allow snowmobiles to get to the College for the Snowmobile Olympus. She pointed out that it was a designated trail for only a two week period.

Burchell said he would not feel comfortable voting on allowing ATV's on public streets. He pointed out that public hearings were held previously where people were quite animated in opposition to snowmobiles and ATV's on City streets.

"I think we've had plenty of public hearings on this. We've had a number of workshops. And to me, it's been abundantly clear that this was a current use and it should be continued to be allowed. We're talking about the 'Caves' area and right now my point is this is going to be a designated within the 'Caves' area so now, the groups can move on to decide what else is going to happen in the 'Caves' area. We can discuss opening City streets in a different area at a different point, you know at another City Commission meeting, but this is certainly for allowing what is currently -- how this property is currently being used -- because the people associated with the Park keep coming back and saying that they're not supposed to be in there anyway. And as far as I'm concerned, they've been there -- they're the ones who built the trails in the first place, and I think that they should be officially allowed to continue what they're doing in the 'Caves' area."

Dennis Cossi interrupted stating the he and Bob Erspamer had a meeting in the hallway, and they agreed that a defined area was necessary to properly enforce any new law. He asked for geographic boundries that would fully describe the 'Caves' area.

"Sam's got a map!" Suzanne Toth declared.

Cossi state that the map would need to be incorporated into the motion so that a defined area is specified.

Lamb pointed out that there is a geographic location, but no definition as to where the trails are within that location. Noren pointed out that ATV use would be allowed within that geographic location. Lamb asked if that meant anywhere with in that location. Toth repeated that it would only be for what currently exists.

Bob Burchell cautioned that opening Trail #2 to ATV use has lead to problems and complaints. He said there are rules on the Trail and their not being followed. He said there would be no rules in the 'Caves' area, and nothing could be enforced there. Burchell said much thought needs to go into such a decision, and the plan to open the entire 'Caves' area without any designations is "half-baked."

Bruce Noren called for a role call vote on the motion to open the 'Caves' to motorized sports. The vote went as follows: Lamb (NO); Toth (YES); Burchell (NO); Laabs (YES); and Noren (YES). The motion passed 3-2.

Later on in the meeting, under "OTHER MATTERS" Suzanne Toth made the following comments and directives:

"From earlier, I guess I would like to direct staff to identify saleable portions of property in the so-called 'Caves' area, the map area we received title work on, and have appraisals and bring that back to the City Commission for consideration for further action by the first meeting in September. Additionally, I'd like to direct staff to work on motorized routes throughout the City and determine if it would be advisable to add additional motorized routes with ATV's on them, current routes for snowmobiles, to expand on our earlier discussion."

According to the City Charter [Section 4.7(b)], "(1) Except for formal inquiry, the City Commission shall deal with the administrative service solely through the City Manager. Neither the City Commission nor any member of it or its committees and Commissions shall issue orders to any subordinate of the City Manager, publicly or privately. (2) Violation of these prohibitions shall constitute Misconduct in Office." (Page 13).

Scott Erickson told the Commission he would follow the directives and bring information back to the Commission by the first meeting in September.

During the "Citizens Wishing to Address the Commission on Non-Agenda Items," Tom Bergman asked if it was the City Commissions intention to sell properties that were currently zoned "open."

Noren responded by saying, "I think she's asking for a verification of what properties might be marketable and the type of values they might have."

Don Maki asked the Commission why they don't establish a City-wide comprehensive plan for ATV and snowmobile use. He explained that other neighboring communities have done just that.

Rick Semo told the Commission that he was not at all happy with the way the Commission dealt with the 'Caves' issue. He pointed out that there were no maps; no plans; and the issue of privately owned land within the area wasn't even addressed.